tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post7581030331083017289..comments2023-09-11T09:21:02.640-04:00Comments on Mop Philosophy: Mop Philosophy Book ClubDaniBPhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-43224344682660132472013-07-07T11:50:51.224-04:002013-07-07T11:50:51.224-04:00Victoria I'm with you, let's take that end...Victoria I'm with you, let's take that ending!DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-74912947029991784202013-07-07T11:49:55.427-04:002013-07-07T11:49:55.427-04:00Lily excellent thoughts on the book! You're s...Lily excellent thoughts on the book! You're so right Isabel does become a facade to us, an almost unreadable portrait!DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-76792416612107713342013-07-05T16:57:38.377-04:002013-07-05T16:57:38.377-04:00I like to think she went back to Rome to get her m...I like to think she went back to Rome to get her money, bung a bit to Pansy whilst knotting the sheets for her to make her escape from the convent and run off with Rosier. THEN she goes back to Casper having finally realised she loves him. Otherwise, as you say, it's very brutal.Victorianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-81820655201427777992013-07-04T11:21:30.842-04:002013-07-04T11:21:30.842-04:00Better late than never .... I'm glad I took up...Better late than never .... I'm glad I took up your challenge to read Portrait, Dani, and like you I both enjoyed the level of language and writing and occasionally found it a chore. The second half of the book certainly picked up speed. The only new thing I can add to the discussion at this point is a comment about the point of view. We spend a lot of time in Isabel's head in the first part of the book and get to know her reasonably well and then James makes us into outsiders (like all of Isabel's suitors) in the second book. We don't see her perspective or see her express any kind of emotion about the death of her infant son - it's mentioned only as an aside. This might be significant in adding to her strong attachment to Pansy, and also ties in with Isabel's consistent reluctance to express or deal with emotion until the crisis scenes at the end - Ralph's death and Caspar's passionate kiss. The book's titled 'portrait' of a lady - it seems that Isabel in some ways is just a facade to us and to the world.Lilynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-40332179216568053582013-06-30T09:01:09.890-04:002013-06-30T09:01:09.890-04:00Fred I agree the novel is scary. The feeling of b...Fred I agree the novel is scary. The feeling of being trapped definitely enters the mind as a reader, the involvement is complete. The long sentences and vivid and constant descriptions really add to the effect, well HJ was certainly a master of psychological realism wasn't he! And yet at the same time there were moments when Isabel's interior life was not well-sketched... especially when she married Gilbert.DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-1573874919698829902013-06-30T06:23:44.111-04:002013-06-30T06:23:44.111-04:00Fred - wow - excellent points. I often think that...Fred - wow - excellent points. I often think that there are social constraints that bind us still, but often wonder if our perceptions of loss or gain of freedom are also the product of realizing that the choices we have made often close doors on other choices. No one has it all, and it is one of the great joys and frustration of this life that that is so...WendyMcLeodMacKnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830981147524921562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-30962862541158802612013-06-30T00:51:31.675-04:002013-06-30T00:51:31.675-04:00I've been following the discussion with intere...I've been following the discussion with interest. I find it extremely frustrating to read about imprisonment - same reason I get antsy reading HJ's good friend Edith Wharton. So I read TPOALin little bites, growling at all the lines that could not be crossed, all the doors,that should not be opened. And I began to find the novel scary, I felt like I too was hiding with Isobel in a prison she had chosen. I also wonder if HJ really preferred his narrow world, ignoring women like Clara Barton and Florence Nightingale.<br /><br />In quiet we had learn’d to dwell --<br />My very chains and I grew friends, <br />So much a long communion tends<br />To make us what we are:—even I <br />Regain’d my freedom with a sigh.<br /><br /><br />Are we freer today? We think we are. wellfedfredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07118802089389931227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-40083314070621395242013-06-29T13:50:21.834-04:002013-06-29T13:50:21.834-04:00Yes I wonder, I think she would lose everything sh...Yes I wonder, I think she would lose everything she brought into the marriage, be penniless, shunned from society.... divorce is still the pits but we've made progress. And this was good advice from your mother even if it sounds a bit strict! <br />Family law would be utterly depressing.DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-23260900585582800942013-06-29T13:47:38.236-04:002013-06-29T13:47:38.236-04:00Lane I loved that!Lane I loved that!DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-4549069826114882462013-06-29T12:29:39.174-04:002013-06-29T12:29:39.174-04:00It's funny Dani bc one thing my mother indoctr...It's funny Dani bc one thing my mother indoctrinated into me more than anything was - DO NOT EVER GET DIVORCED! It was considered the worst fate of a woman, there was some respect in being a widow but being divorced was your fault goshdarnit. While I didn't heed her advice in general I do think that in certain countries ( My mother is full Korean )it is a huge stigma. I personally don't get it but then again I am quite liberal in most things so a lot of things confuse me like that. I can only imagine back then more so than now, it was a binary path. The third option was just too scary.<br /><br />Prenups have a way to go. I was going to get into Family Law until I was warned against it. 50% divorce rate but guess what the prenup rate is? .001% ish. Ironically in the middle ages the prenups for the average woman seemed a lot better than what most women get now. Plus I was wondering what the legal implications of a divorce for women was back then? Coulda shoulda wouldahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507021618497645667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-61191182609802509972013-06-29T12:23:19.584-04:002013-06-29T12:23:19.584-04:00Yu're right except I suppose marriage had even...Yu're right except I suppose marriage had even more of a significance back then as it was not only choosing a partner but your life calling and profession in one. I see a lot of Merle's in urban areas, I have met a lot of Merle's - perhaps not in the same karmic ties but in that they replace absent family and help/meddling/ruining is a hair width's of a nuance... Coulda shoulda wouldahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507021618497645667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-2473831387322181932013-06-29T11:41:21.754-04:002013-06-29T11:41:21.754-04:00Caspar-- tall, dark, blue eyes, strong jaw. Sign ...Caspar-- tall, dark, blue eyes, strong jaw. Sign us up! He seemed to get under her skin as no one else did. "It had been horrid to see him, because he represented the only serious harm that ( to her belief) she had ever done in the world."Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13175229460841379583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-82108868862636896312013-06-29T11:22:00.257-04:002013-06-29T11:22:00.257-04:00Oh Lane - that is so interesting! I assumed it wa...Oh Lane - that is so interesting! I assumed it was TB - no one could romanticize consumption like a victorian author!<br /><br />Gilbert was cruel in his analyses of the flaws of all of Isabel's group, wasn't he? And so passive aggressive! and yet he liked Caspar - I found that fascinating, since Isabel herself believed that of all her suitors, only Caspar well and truly loved her!<br /><br />WendyMcLeodMacKnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830981147524921562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-56252453405824236512013-06-29T11:21:27.647-04:002013-06-29T11:21:27.647-04:00Oh, and Dani, there is even evidence of planning t...Oh, and Dani, there is even evidence of planning travel packing!<br /> "I shall go tomorrow," Henrietta said. " I think I better not wait"<br /><br /> "Dear me, I'm sorry; I'm having some dresses made," the Countess cried.Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13175229460841379583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-82214527518241801952013-06-29T11:00:53.800-04:002013-06-29T11:00:53.800-04:00Yes gout can kill you, by kidney stones inducing r...Yes gout can kill you, by kidney stones inducing renal failure. More frequently, sufferers probably wished they were dead as the inflamed joints are exquisitely painful. And no ibuprofen/prednisone/colchicine! Can't imagine this!<br /><br />Yes tuberculosis was Ralph's ailment. 19th century lit is littered with descriptions of TB, its long course, the endless coughing, wasting away, sometimes romanticizing the victims. Ralph and everyone else were aware that he was going to die; it's hard for us to imagine such a world. Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13175229460841379583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-76072664745883731462013-06-29T10:43:52.210-04:002013-06-29T10:43:52.210-04:00Lane I also loved that description of Henrietta by...Lane I also loved that description of Henrietta by Gilbert... and yes more reason to dislike him. That derailment was so painful to watch, and yes I was hollering to marry Lord Warburton as well, he is described as a flawless man too, it was like Henry James was torturing us!<br />I can understand you would have been interested in the illnesses! I didn't know a person could die from gout. And what was Ralph's lung condition, was it TB?DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-76655825415249245442013-06-29T10:10:05.594-04:002013-06-29T10:10:05.594-04:00Sorry to be so late, but Tabs over-served me last ...Sorry to be so late, but Tabs over-served me last night.<br /><br />I had not previously read this, nor had I seen a movie adaptation, so the unfolding of the story was quite engrossing. I too found Henrietta refreshing as a woman with real opinions, unafraid to voice them. The author's affection for her shines through, I think, as does his intention to deepen our dislike for Gilbert when he provides such an unflattering description of her, that she reminds him of a new steel pen and may not be a woman. Well!<br /><br />Isabel is a contradiction, even or mostly , to herself. She has pursued an admirable course early on ( to us) in seeming to make choices that will preserve her idea of herself as somehow free. Even though we are all yelling, marry Lord Warburton, for chrisakes, and live in a manner few can dream of, we understand her wish to fashion her own life. But "freedom" is a hard thing to manage-- and such potent theme for us still-- and often derails us. Isabel was derailed all right, into a bondage of her own choosing. <br /><br />I was drawn into all the 19th illness, too, of course, when gout was a truly awful condition with no treatment and TB raged unchecked. Illness and its results in character intrigue me.<br /><br />Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13175229460841379583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-32433304737639017662013-06-29T09:07:24.955-04:002013-06-29T09:07:24.955-04:00Wendy I ordered them both from Amazon, actually I ...Wendy I ordered them both from Amazon, actually I found the entire Henry James BBC collection on Amazon for a pretty good price.DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-76718913159926296722013-06-29T08:52:24.874-04:002013-06-29T08:52:24.874-04:00I have to find them movie - isn't available on...I have to find them movie - isn't available on netfleix or apple tvWendyMcLeodMacKnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830981147524921562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-6220941906222449592013-06-29T08:51:56.185-04:002013-06-29T08:51:56.185-04:00CSW, it is funny - I know what you mean - but I th...CSW, it is funny - I know what you mean - but I thought that it was still relevant - how many people "settle" because they wonder what their parents, their friends, etc, would think if they left? In certain classes, I think that is more acute. I think in some cases, middle class would be easiest for this - poorer people often feel "stuck" not just because of money, but because their entire cohort is in the same circumstance as them, The same can be said of the upper classes, though maybe I am stretching this too much.. I think he alludes to her obligation to pansy when they are saying goodby and that she will choose this form of mothering. Then I wonder - how did her relationship with Madame Merle proceed from there? WendyMcLeodMacKnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830981147524921562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-68938315574290670242013-06-29T08:47:27.938-04:002013-06-29T08:47:27.938-04:00And it is funny, because she looks at her sister&#...And it is funny, because she looks at her sister's as having this conventional, unknowing kind of life and yet she chooses the same, except in a more cultured locale...WendyMcLeodMacKnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04830981147524921562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-87142319060712568442013-06-29T08:42:05.674-04:002013-06-29T08:42:05.674-04:00Naomi I started watching the Jane Campion version ...Naomi I started watching the Jane Campion version of the movie last night, I only managed about half an hour or so but it was thrilling to watch after just finishing the book... I also have the BBC version from the 60's? 70's? I'll be watching that this week.<br />I agree the issues seem very modern and the whole thing about divorce just not being done, well this book is a good argument for divorce... and for pre-nups! Imagine if Isabel could have had both...DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-57887784701686517192013-06-29T08:37:24.360-04:002013-06-29T08:37:24.360-04:00Great recap Dani! Ok there is a lot to discuss her...Great recap Dani! Ok there is a lot to discuss here so like Wendy I may go in and out during the day also because I am in the middle of packing.<br /><br />So this may come out odd or disjointed bc I am typing fast.<br /><br />(Tabitha, sorry but I did ask for margaritas on the rocks...Ta!)<br /><br />But this book was on my to read list. <br /><br />This was odd to read because some of the issues seemed so modern! I didn't think that women in fact had the choice but then again this was a certain social class with certain circumstances.<br /><br />I related to it because I also got married late ( 36 ). I needed my independence more than a partner and it took ages for me to realize those two can get along and aren't at odds with one another. The ending however seemed very "of the time". <br /><br />But endings are never going to be good by virtue of the word. I don't know if I have ever been satisfied with an ending both good or bad. In fact I wish Mr James would have been more ambiguous a la Before Sunrise or Sunset ( one of those ).<br /><br />But now I am desperate to watch the movie version!! <br /><br />Be back later :)Coulda shoulda wouldahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507021618497645667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-69963438966020497382013-06-29T08:28:14.590-04:002013-06-29T08:28:14.590-04:00Not sure exactly how I would describe it, but thin...Not sure exactly how I would describe it, but think Isabel has a big streak of the "masochistic" in her, preferring dark and perverse to gallant but dull.GetFreshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15426579144685310371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3818151513249030194.post-65580299365766208712013-06-29T08:21:16.087-04:002013-06-29T08:21:16.087-04:00I think she did love Ralph as a brother, he was he...I think she did love Ralph as a brother, he was her closest family member, she seems completely alone otherwise and doesn't seem to have much of a relationship at all with her own sisters.DaniBPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02633155240779845497noreply@blogger.com